tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post6997245395655003864..comments2023-10-30T14:46:42.973+10:00Comments on Jottings: God's friendshipMichaelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15356422488538820280noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-74881577337286490172012-07-31T14:55:52.630+10:002012-07-31T14:55:52.630+10:00I was reading an interesting book not too long ago...I was reading an interesting book not too long ago - I think actually a study of Shin Buddhism, but it got into the apokatastasis in the context of the Amida's "Universal Vow" - which suggested an orthodox interpretation of the apokatastasis as the "restoration of all things to God". This is not necessarily exclusive of Hell; Hell restores to God by bringing the sinner back into what Martin Buber called the "pre-biographical unity" of God, a diminution of being (which does not entail their annihiliation, any more than our union and unity with God - a la Catherine of Genoa and Al-Hallaj - entails our annihilation). Theologians and mystics are in agreement on stating that the "fires" of Hell consist in God's unrequited love for the sinner, so this suggestion may indeed be of some use for the Christian theologian.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00147139664156379333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-2598165035878480382010-08-13T20:51:17.742+10:002010-08-13T20:51:17.742+10:00Hi michael,
Thoroughly enjoyed this post... thank ...Hi michael,<br />Thoroughly enjoyed this post... thank you...Daniel Onoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-67019853045040281902010-07-19T15:06:55.766+10:002010-07-19T15:06:55.766+10:00Thanks for this piece, Michael. I've been int...Thanks for this piece, Michael. I've been interested in the concept of friendship with God since reading Elisabeth Moltmann-Wendel's "Rediscovering Friendship" and hearing Terence Fretheim speak about relationship with God a few years ago.inarinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-26868500482835917292010-07-09T06:20:42.769+10:002010-07-09T06:20:42.769+10:00And it appears that nothing was lost after all. Go...And it appears that nothing was lost after all. Google was just playing games with me. How appropriate!Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356422488538820280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-3351233506947693762010-07-08T21:40:08.982+10:002010-07-08T21:40:08.982+10:00Oh dear I'm having problems with the comments ...Oh dear I'm having problems with the comments tonight. The first time I tried to post it got lost and the second time the final paragraph seems to be missing some so here goes again:<br /><br /><br />I pray that prayer wholeheartedly and I know as did, it seems, plenty of early Christians, that you can accept the existence of hell but you can still hope and pray and believe and even expect that it will be empty, that we will all one day be together.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356422488538820280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-33468818049415610272010-07-08T21:37:15.664+10:002010-07-08T21:37:15.664+10:00There's only one form of tough love for a Chri...There's only one form of tough love for a Christian. That's the one spelt out in the beatitudes. It involves returning good for evil, praying for those who abuse you, turning the other cheek and forgiving the other not just 7 times but 70 times 7. It's unconditional love and it's the toughest form of love there is because it's godlike and very hard to achieve. <br /><br />One of the clear signs the Roman communion was in need of renewal was by just how easy it was to find yourself consigned to Hell. All manner of rules the infringement of which was considered a mortal sin. A vast number of people lived in misery because of that.<br /><br />When I returned to the Rosary about 8 years ago I rediscovered the Fatima prayer:<br /><br />"Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins save us from the fires of Hell; bring all souls to heaven ESPECIALLY those in most need of your mercy"<br /><br />At first I wasn't going to say it thinking it belonged to an outdated piety but then I reflected on the words and realsied just how profound they were. I realise now it's in the spirit of that older Christianity glimpsed in the Sybillenes and the Epistle of the Apostles. And maybe its regular repetition has helped to move the church away from that cruel and vengeful, indeed, arrogant hell and damnation theology.<br /><br />I pray that prayer wholeheartedly and I know as did, it seems, plenty of early Christians, but you can still hope and pray and believe and even expect that it will be empty, that we will all one day be together.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356422488538820280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-82415678760328860902010-07-08T21:21:40.525+10:002010-07-08T21:21:40.525+10:00There's only one sort of 'tough love' ...There's only one sort of 'tough love' for a christian. It's summed up in the beatitudes. It means returning good for evil, praying for those who abuse you and forgiving not just 7 times but 70 times 7. It's unconditional love and it's the toughest around because it's godlike and it's tough on the self, which is the only form of toughness worth anything.<br /><br />It's quite possible to believe in Hell and at the same time to believe it will eventually be empty. Not only believe it but pray for it too. <br /><br />I guess one of the clear signs that the Roman communion was in such desperate need of renewal was by just how easy it was then to find yourself consigned to Hell. Not just all the sexual stuff - and there was heaps of that, but even eating a ham sandwich on a Friday could get you landed in Hell if you had the misfortune of dying afterwards. And I've been reading Anne Rice and realise that I missed out on facing hellfire for reading banned books placed on the Index.<br /><br />An awful lot of people lived and died in misery because of silly ideas like that. I've sat with gay men dying from HIV terrified because of all the hellfire teachings Protestant and Catholic. One can only rebel and reject, actually condemn such cruel nonsense.<br /><br />When I came back to the Rosary about 8 years ago I rediscovered the Fatima prayer which goes:<br /><br />"Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell and bring all souls to heaven ESPECIALLY those in most need of your mercy"<br /><br />It's usually said after each decade. At first I didn't say it associating it with that Blue Army piety of the past but when I reflected on the words I realised just what a profound prayer it really was. Very much in the spirit of that old Christianity of the Sybillenes and Epistle of the Apostles.<br /><br />I think it's John Donne who says any one's death diminishes me. I would have to go on and say anyone eternally damned, cut off forever, diminishes me, diminishes us. It's a loss to big to bear. And a Catholic view of humanity, whether Roman or Orthodox stresses that we are not random individuals but of part of a broader collectivity. So I pray the Fatima prayer wholeheartedly.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356422488538820280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-4480429848096738542010-07-06T18:43:08.780+10:002010-07-06T18:43:08.780+10:00Dear Michael,
I enjoyed reading this and largely a...Dear Michael,<br />I enjoyed reading this and largely agree with you. Thanks for the plug too :-)<br /><br />Your readers may care to take a look at my WebPage on Friendship:<br />http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/friendship.html<br /><br />Yes, I am "Islamophobic" in the sense that I am very much afraid of Islam and its influence. For my reasons, take a look at:<br />http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/ServiceAndFreedom.html<br /><br />I think you capture my Traditionalism well enough. I agree with you that the Church was in need of a renewal in the Twentieth Century. However I do not think that this is at all what happened. The evidence of the collapse of practice in Western Europe should be enough to convince any-one that my view is, sadly, correct.<br />See:<br />http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/Decline.html<br /><br />For my take on Liturgy, see:<br />http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/Mass.html<br />and<br />http://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/WesCathMass.html<br /><br />Fond Regards,<br /><br />StephenStephen Lovatt AKA Pharseahttp://webspace.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1667005464723133101.post-67140550109461311642010-07-05T20:19:39.841+10:002010-07-05T20:19:39.841+10:00Despite "all manner of thing shall be well&qu...Despite "all manner of thing shall be well", Dame Julian was not a universalist. She taught that the dammed are those who will no longer be mentioned before God and that they are those who have sinned in spirit rather than just soul like everyone else. <br /><br />Likewise the early Christians did teach and preach hell. The matter is mentioned with contempt by the pagan critic Celsus who compares them to a certain type of adherent to more traditional Roman religion who name I forget but who talk much about afterlife reward and punishment. It would surely be inevitable early Christians would have this emphasis as it is so strong in the gospels and the earliest atonement theology, which is a ransom one, is based on the need to be ransomed from devil and hell. Granted there wasn't the absolute and morbid streak that comes later with such as Augustine and includes unbaptized children, but the theme was present. Universalism emerges under Greek influence and frankly, someone like Gregory Nyssa who teaches that God is always unknowable or indescribable, a great darkness yet the devil is salvation material is surely a bit of a blind guide to all such subjects. He is virtually turning the received tradition upside down. <br /><br />Likewise but coming to the more modern re Massignon I think some scepticism is appropriate. Christians of the East, describing, discussing or dialoguing with Islam aren't on a level playing field. They mostly seek to compromise, adjust and not offend since short of being imprisoned, fined or martyred that's what the Christian situation basically is in most Muslim countries and under Sharia Law which positively requires non believers pay a tax and so be fined for their convictions. Christians of the Eastern churches (Syrian etc) are Christians who today don't preach openly, don't evangelize in any way because they are simply not permitted and dare not (assuming they retain any convictions in the matter which given theology post Nyssa they may not). Evangelical missionaries alone claim the rights and take the risks which all said and done are surely the kind Christians are supposed to take for the faith. Christians under Islam are otherwise tolerated as a tradition, harmless rituals only. There is shocking discrimination being practiced today in even relatively liberal Egypt where permission is no longer given for building of churches and churches are being torn down if built and believers attacked. It's not automatic "islamophobia" to question human rights and religious freedoms under Islam. Real threats to them exist and not just Christians but western liberals are now under a real threat they need to get more wise to. Only today the paper is talking about a visiting group declaring that Muslims are supposed to reject the idea and practice of democracy.<br />Altogether we are faced with problems here that sweet reason will not necessarily solve and a rather tough love approach by Christians and liberals that speaks out is the only stance if freedoms are to remain or be increased.Rollan McClearyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06938125139496292379noreply@blogger.com